..........Are animals equally as important as Humans, and why/why not???
..........Are animals equally as important as Humans, and why/why not???
Well, we're all animals
I don't think humans are more important than non-humans per se but I do think that it is natural for each species to value their own more than other species so yes, I value human life more than a non-human. Yet, for a dog, other dogs is much more important than a human but a dog will develop a strong attachment for their human and will protect their human from harm from another dog even if it means harming that other dog. So where does this reply go from here?
Beats the hell out of me
Leave it to PFC to ask a question that has no right or wrong answer
the debate in the other topic was "if you were in a suitation where you had to kill an animal or a human - which would you kill"
I concluded my side by saying that it is natural human behaviour (survival instinct) to protect other humans.
therefore I'd kill the animal. It's not even something I'd think about.
We must be the change we wish to see. ~ Ghandi
I'm calm like a bomb.
Personally, I feel that we all have equal rights.
Animals kill other animals because they have a need to, in order to live. Human beings have the sophistication to make informed choices. We do not need to kill animals in order to survive.
I respect animals, I realise that some are unfriendly, some are savage, even, some are cruel. I do not think that is a valid reason for human beings to be savage and cruel. We have the knowledge and intelligence to prevent harm and cruelty...............in my opinion we have the responsibility to protect other species, not harm them.
yes, you said that you respect lions because they are only doing what they need to do to survive.PinkFluffyCloud
we as humans also need to survive, you know. and killing ourselves off is not helpful to our survival.
so, if give the choice of either killing an animal from another species.. or killing a human.. I would pick the animal without a second thought.
Of course I respect animals. I'm vegan, I don't eat animals. this is a choice I make.
HOWEVER. I would not put the life of an animal on the same level as that of another person. In my opinion anyone doing so is a possible danger to our species. You realise that a lion would kill you without thinking about it to protect IT'S young?
We must be the change we wish to see. ~ Ghandi
I'm calm like a bomb.
no, it's part of my non-violent philosophy.PinkFluffyCloud
We must be the change we wish to see. ~ Ghandi
I'm calm like a bomb.
Of course it would, and, I guess, if a Lion ever had my son cornered in a cave and his only hope was for me to kill that Lion, and I had NO other practical choice, I would have to kill that Lion. Just as I would kill a human if I ever caught one trying to murder my son.rhinosauraus
That's family!
I would feel the same if a Lion (or a human) was attacking one of 'my' animals.
I can't watch Nature programmes, either!
ah.. but what about if you saw a lion attacking a stranger?
would you let the lion kill the stranger.. or would you kill the lion?
We must be the change we wish to see. ~ Ghandi
I'm calm like a bomb.
rhinosauraus
I have to say, that would be a different matter, I would not be able to kill the Lion, though, sorry!
My beliefs are as following:-
1 The enviroment... This will come 1st always, we are the guardians of this Earth for future generations.
2 Veganism..... This promotes a healthier enviroment for all and a healthier life for me.
3 Human Rights... Many humans are tortured for there beliefs. They are often political or enviromentalists, but we are lucky and have free speach, many don't.
4 Animals..... They will benefit from 1 & 2
So for me animals are down the list but still important, I live by this and will always defend my opinions on these issues. All 4 are important and go hand in hand.
Though I stick absolutely to my comment in the other thread that, given such choices, I would not be able to choose between killing an animal or a human, I think you *know* that family ties, to our offspring, are strong. If my son were in real danger, I would kill for him if i had to, but I would hesitate first, and I would feel shame and sorrow afterwards, for sure.
so you value some humans above others?PinkFluffyCloud
do you also value some animals above others?
I thought your philosophy was that everything is equal?
We must be the change we wish to see. ~ Ghandi
I'm calm like a bomb.
I agree 100%boomer
We must be the change we wish to see. ~ Ghandi
I'm calm like a bomb.
I think you are being a little silly, now, Rhino!
I believe that all species should have equal basic rights.
I also have an instinct to protect those humans/non-humans who are part of my 'pack'. That is an instinct which, I am sure, overides any philosophy in times of danger.
I try to live by my philosophy. I do not value humans above animals. That is why I am a Vegan.
You can bait me all you like, but my reasoning is quite clear.
Yet you would not hesitate to kill an animal to further human survival?rhinosauraus
ditto.PinkFluffyCloud
well, that means you do value some people above others then.I believe that all species should have equal basic rights.
I also have an instinct to protect those humans/non-humans who are part of my 'pack'.
I am vegan because I realise that there is no NEED to kill animals to survive. if there WAS a need to kill animals to survive I would not hesitate.I try to live by my philosophy. I do not value humans above animals. That is why I am a Vegan.
I'm not baiting you. I'm just stating my opinions the same way you're stating yours.You can bait me all you like, but my reasoning is quite clear.
We must be the change we wish to see. ~ Ghandi
I'm calm like a bomb.
Indeed. You said you would also. You just said you'd only do it for a select few.PinkFluffyCloud
We must be the change we wish to see. ~ Ghandi
I'm calm like a bomb.
I value all species equally. Of course I differentiate between individuals - particularly if one was a victim. That is not the same as believing that animals are equally as entitled to a reasonable life as humans are, is it?
It is baiting to think up childish scenarios simply in order to try and 'trip' someone up.
And you are hypocritical in saying that you have a non-violent philosophy if you would 'not hesitate' to kill an animal. Or do you not consider that violence????????
rhinosauraus
No, I said I would do it if i had 'no other practical choice'.
. . .To me?--I've run over some very cute animals while being vegan. Somehow, I think that I would be more affected if they were human beings.PinkFluffyCloud
. . .In the grand scheme of things?--Who knows who is more important?
I don't know why I am bothering to respond to this.
John
Well, ok, John, don't bother, but actually I think it is quite an important question as we are all Vegans.
I don't consider it right to be cruel or harmful to any species. However, if I saw a wild animal attempting to kill someone (especially a child, whether my own or not), I'm afraid my instinctual reaction would be to do anything I could to get the animal away from the human. I would have the same reaction if the attacker was human. The main difference is, if it were MY family, I would die to protect them, if it was a child not in my family...I would probably die to protect them...if it were another adult not in my family...I would probably not die for them. There again, I am one of those people that will kill a spider if I see it in my daughter's bedroom. The image in my mind of it crawling on my baby while she's sleeping is simply not something I can go about with. I never kill bugs outside or in my garage--I consider that their territory...but in my house...if I can't catch it and put it out...it goes...one way or another. I guess what this all means is that I consider my child's life more important than anyone's...even my own--it's just automatic and I can't change that.
I think I will have to agree that even though I do not think that humans are better than animals, it IS a fact that one will naturally consider it's own species to be more important than another. It is probably a survival instinct.
For every spider that you kill, that's a hundred bugs that are crawling all over your daughter.
I would hate to have to kill anyone, but of course I WOULD PROTECT MY CHILD - as you say, Michelle, that is pure instinct.
However, I would protect him equally from both animal or human predator - NOT just animals because I feel that I am of a superior race, as many humans seem to believe. That is my point, in a nutshell.
I do relate better with animals, so possibly I am a bit biased against my own species, I guess that does make me an oddball.
John, I always enjoy your one-liners!John
If I saw the other hundred bugs, I would take them outside. However, the only bugs I've seen in my house are spiders and crickets and moths. I think that spiders are the only ones that could be potentially poisonous, so there ya go. And, I do take some of them out, BTW.John
Fortunately, I don't think that we have any poisonous spiders where I live. Some parts of the country have the brown recluse which gives an awful bite. And of course there is the black widow.
PinkFluffyCloud
I find no reason to believe my life is less or more important for me then the life of a deer is for that deer....
I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.
Of course, but what about the life of the Deer to you, in your life?Korn
If you drive a car or participate in any sort of mass transit, you are directly or indirectly killing probably dozens of flying or crawling life forms every day. If you feel that all life is equal, why not stay at home all day, every day?
I think this sort of discussion, though well-intentioned, brings out the self righteous tendencies in people. We all know that it is impossible to be 100% vegan in the real world. So, if you choose to participate in day to day life, you are valuing human life more than other life forms to some extent, like it or not.
I choose to avoid any actions that would cause animal suffering as much as I practically can. That is why I find veganism so appealing -- because of its inherent compassion and far-reaching positive impact. But I am also a realist and realize that it would be hypocritical for me to say I value all life equally enough to not participate in the day to day world.
We all do what we can. Right?
Just my .02.
I think that people are being a bit absolutist. I object to visitors at my place swatting mossies without a thought because you can just wave them away but there are green flies that attack and follow you and have a bite that bloody hurts so I swat them. They are about the only things that my dogs try to kill, too.
Of course different animals have different 'value'. I don't cry myself to sleep over the dead insects in my car's radiator grille but, if I'd hit say, a possum, I would be very upset.
If you saw someone (at a distance) about to push the plunger that would detonate a bomb under a train carrying hundreds of people and you had a rifle what would you do? Shout "I say, old bean, that's not quite the thing to do?"
I would shoot to kill.
Circumstances alter cases and motive is a very important factor.
Some of the above posts belong in the (preschool) playground.
As important to me, in my life, as I guess my life is to the deer, in it's life, maybe?PinkFluffyCloud
I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.
No, I was only trying to find practial ways to point out (what I see as) flaws in your philosophy.PinkFluffyCloud
And you are hypocritical in saying that you have a non-violent philosophy if you would 'not hesitate' to kill an animal. Or do you not consider that violence????????
if you read what I said, you'll see that I only said I would kill if I had to. the same way you said you would. The only differeance is that you seem more vauge about whether you would assist an animal or a human if both were in need, unless the human was part of your "pack".
We must be the change we wish to see. ~ Ghandi
I'm calm like a bomb.
No, my Philosophy is simple - all living beings have the same right to life, therefore I could not choose between SPECIES.
My instincts, however, which are a different matter to my Philosophy, would probably take over in certain situations. This does not represent a flaw in my Philosophy, as I would feel equally concerned about an animal in danger as I would a human in danger - my 'case' is clear.
The fact that I knew you were going to bring the whole 'Lion' scenario up just proves my point that a lot of people seem to think in very narrow tunnel-vision, instead of looking at the 'bigger picture'. I am comfortable with the way that I try to live my life, so picking holes with my ideals won't upset me. I take each situation as it comes. Fortunately, I have never yet had to choose between a Lion and my son. Hopefully, things will stay that way.
As for the debate between animal life and human life, I do believe they are of equal value and deserve equal treatment. That is why I have come to adopt the vegan philosophy. But I also realize that in the last 100 years the world has changed a great deal. Many aspects of the modern world dont take in the value of animal or even human life. But that is why I think veganism is so great, because I think it stands for change. It stands for a small revolution that is forming all over the world by people who are demanding that this world needs to stop and realize the destruction and waste that humans are creating and try and stop it.
As for choosing between a lion and a human...I think it could be possible to stop an attack without killing either, so I would try and do that.
"Can't Fly, Can't Fight, Can't Crow"
-Rufeo
THIS is an interesting read ladies and gents. Check out the faq.
1984, I completely agree. I would do anything in my power to NOT kill, or be the cause of any death, anaimal or human, to me, that is obvious form my postings here, but maybe others have not understood me.
I think it is actually a whole different question to say, if you had to save someone, and the choice was your own child or someone else. That is almost irrelevant to my general Philososphy.
As for someone saying I should 'stay at home' if I don't want to harm animals, that is just absurd! I never willfully cause harm, that is why I am in the throes of changing to a self-reliant lifestyle, which will drastically reduce my use of the car and other modern trappings, exactly for that reason. However, I still feel that one can believe in equality of the species, whilst recognising that it is impossible to acheive perfection!
Are you sure about this? You've already said you feel less for the small animals such as snails and flies. But anyway, here's another question for you.PinkFluffyCloud
You see a news report. It tells you how a factory farm has been discovered where humans are bred in cramped pens and fed to each other. and then slaughtered to be sold as food.
How would you feel about this? no worse than you do when you hear about factory farmed cows or pigs?
this is illogical. do you think any other species on earth would consider humans to be worth as much to them as others of their own kind?My instincts, however, which are a different matter to my Philosophy, would probably take over in certain situations. This does not represent a flaw in my Philosophy, as I would feel equally concerned about an animal in danger as I would a human in danger - my 'case' is clear.
of course they wouldn't, because to do so is to place your own kind in danger. and that's not the reason for our existance. we;re not here to look after the animals. we're here to look after eachother. just like the animals look after themselves.
but just because we don't have to look after them, doesn't mean we have to set out to harm them either.
I'm not sure how you can think I'm being narrow minded here. All I'm doing is pointing out what I see as being major flaws in your ethos regarding life on earth.The fact that I knew you were going to bring the whole 'Lion' scenario up just proves my point that a lot of people seem to think in very narrow tunnel-vision, instead of looking at the 'bigger picture'.
We must be the change we wish to see. ~ Ghandi
I'm calm like a bomb.
I can see nothing flawed in PFC's ethos. It's as human as any ethical vegan's beliefs. Put simply (and PFC please correct me if I'm wrong!): all human and animal life on earth is equal, it all has the same rights to freedom and happiness. By living as conscientiously and ethically as you can you strive to minimise your impact on the earth, its resources and fellow inhabitants, be they human or non-human. However, in one of the hypothetical situations as described above - and the factory farmed humans is the best of any absurd ''example'' I've ever seen on a vegan board! - you will automatically feel most for, or want to rescue first, the human or animal life you feel closest to. That's got nothing to do with theory or science, it's instinct.
I know a couple of total brats of kids. If they and my 2 dogs were to be found in a burning house (and god forbid that they'll ever end up between the same 4 walls to begin with, nevermind it being on fire!) I sure as hell would grab my dogs and tell the brats to jump out of the window. If it'd be between 2 great kids and the very grumpy dog from around the corner I'd probably take my chances with tossing the dog out the window and grabbing the kids. Sure as hell I wouldn't want to leave anyone behind tho.
Now I agree that other species would most likely want to preserve their own species before helping another species. But us humans are a strange lot. We've been ''awarded'' the ability to reason and think way more complex than other, non-human, species, thus giving ourselves the possibility to ponder over these kind of questions. We've also used our ability to ''preserve our species'' at the expense of virtually every other living being on this earth. There is hardly any species that hasn't been affected by ours, and most, if not all of them in quite a disastrous way.
Personally I'm enough unimpressed with the human species to not feel an overwhelming urge to care if something bad happens to some of them (and puhlease don't bring up the tsunami thing, that'd be both very crass and sooo predictable!). That doesn't mean I disrespect anyone or wouldn't help a fellow human being if I could. Likewise I'm more upset about anything bad happening to a dog than to a cow. That doesn't mean I respect the cow less or would want for anything bad happening to her, it just means that I have less affinity with her than with dogs.
I'm not always sure if what I'm sayingis very clear, but I'm sure you'll let me know
See ya,
Billy
please grant me the senility to forget about people I never liked anyway
Well stated, Billy. I agree.
I could imagine that the 2 brats would probably have been the ones to start the fire in your scenario. Most dogs aren't arsonists but plenty of people are!
The main "flaw" I was refering to was PFC's statement that she would unable (or at least highly unwilling) to decide between killing a human (other than a member of what she refered to as her "pack") and killing an animal, if she were put in the situation of having to chose.
In my opinion it's not something that should even be thought about this way. If you have to pick between having the life of another person on your conscience or the life of an animal.. you should surely pick the life of the animal without question.
We must be the change we wish to see. ~ Ghandi
I'm calm like a bomb.
Why not bring up the tsunami thing? It's a real world example pertaining to the first part of your sentence. Those victims were "some" humans, no?Billy
To each his own. I just hope people realize not all vegans think like this.Billy
Didn't Francione put that same scenario in his last book? - Where the front cover has a picture of a burning house with a dog looking out of one window and a baby at the other. Now most people would say, save the baby. But Francione says, suppose the dog is your beloved family companion, and the baby is the baby who grows up to be Hitler?
There are so many silly hypotheticals in this thread so far - I mean, are you likely to come across a lion? To me, the main thing is to question why humans believe that they are top of the pops, and non-humans are lesser beings. I don't really give a fig if the human race disappeared the way some creatures have - the planet was here long before humans poked their noses into earth, and the planet will be here long after humans disappear.
Eve
Can't do multiple quotes, so bear with me!
Rhino - there's nothing that anyone ''should'', if that means changing their opinions to fit in with yours. If you find it a ''flaw'' that PFC couldn't choose between taking a human and an animals life - in this very hypothetical situation that would very likely never happen anyway - then so be it. It's not a flaw, it's a difference of opinion.
Feline thanks! Yep, that was exactly what I was thinking when I wrote it! But, hopefully another daft hypothetical situation that'll never happen, as I wouldn't want to have the kids and my dogs between the same 4 walls anyway, even less so without their parents present to supervise. That would leave me off the hook as well when it'd come between saving lives, as surely they save their kids, wouldn't they?
Atlanta - why not bring up the tsunami? Because I don't want to have to think about other absurd hypothetical situations people come up with with regards to it. It might seem funny, but I do actually have enough respect for those people who have been hit by it, and don't want to be misquoted somewhere 5 pages further, as someone who'd happily let the whole of Thailand perish for the life of one dog. It's internet, anything can happen!
eve - couldn't agree with you more! Not read anything by Francione. I've heard enough of him to understand that he must be a very knowledgeable, well spoken, ethical man. That's enough for me to know, as I still have a mountain of books to work my way thru before I can start any new ones!
See ya!
Billy
please grant me the senility to forget about people I never liked anyway
Thanks for mentioning Francione eve.eve
What if what if, what if you were cornered by a lion on that deserted island. When is that question coming ?eve
You can catch spiders really easily without harming them, by putting an empty jar over them and sliding a piece of card underneath to trap them in the jar, then take them outside.Michelle
Although, we haven't got poisonous spiders here in the UK, and maybe I wouldn't be brave enough to use this trick on something dangerous!
I never kill anything intentionally, but in the course of life, it's impossible to avoid killing and damaging other creatures altogether
I understand how many vegans see humans and their arrogant assumption of human supremacy as culpable in the destruction of the environment, of course, it's true. But I also think that vegans and animal rights people who appear 'anti-human' may be doing more damage to the cause, and actually putting off potential allies.
Most people have been brought up to believe animal produce is necessary for human health. Therefore their seemingly callous habitual behaviour is mostly a result of ignorance and indoctrination.
I believe that providing a positive example of how to live healthily without recourse to slaughter is the most valuable aspect of veganism. I've seen people I know change their lifestyles by becoming vegetarian, or reducing their meat consumption. Positive initial steps in the right direction.
I also hope that the impact of veganism will be exponential, as the people we influence go on to influence others...even in the 30 years I've been veg*n I've seen it's impact spreading...the supermarkets now have large vegetarian food sections, the government is telling people to eat more fruit and veg, they're starting 'free fruit' schemes in schools instead of the 'free milk' I grew up with.
Eventually, let's hope that reduced dependence on killing will become the norm, instead of the minority pursuit of the dedicated few it is today. The health benefits of veganism are an added incentive. After all, it doesn't matter to 'the animals' whether people give up meat for ethical or health reasons.
If you don't believe that it's possible for other people to change, in the same way as you yourself, as a vegan, have done, then there's little hope for the world. Thinking of oneself as a member of a compassionate elite entrenched against the cruel world doesn't really help much. Of course it's frustrating that change happens slower than we'd like. But alienating people by making them feel like they're 'worthless scum' that the world would be better off without isn't helpful, in my opinion. Of course there will be people who are too entrenched to change. But they will die. That's inevitable. It's important to be a positive influence on the younger generation and those with minds open enough to change.
Just wanted to say that I am really too long in the tooth to have allowed myself to get caught in this particular 'trap'!.
I value all life, I am compassionate, I am caring, I will help humans and non-humans, it's just that I find it naturally easier to physically 'nurse' and 'rescue' animals. I suppose we are all made differently.
I love the post by Kokopelli.
Sometimes I get too hot under the collar about things when I should just get up and walk away!
Instead of the choice of killing an animal or human, how about saving the life of an animal or human.
If I'm in this desperate situation of life or death. I have a split second to save the life of this human being or this animal, what do I do?
Personally, it will be the Human Being. It breaks my heart to think of any of my pets suffering some kind of death. But, I believe in this situation Humanity comes first. I would never chose to kill an animal. If given the opportunity to save an animal, I will, and I have, numerous times. It really pisses my husband off, I have to say! LOL!
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