"Pets" - Which of these statements do you agree with?

[littlewinker]

A better example of a work animal that it may be hard to think of phasing out (in a vegan utopia) in my mind is the seeing eye dog. Several (expensive for now) "field sensing" seeing-eye canes are in production already, but I don't know how interchangeable they are to a real dog.

guide-horses! they're tiny and there's only 2 in the world but apparently they're better than dogs

at least they wouldn't contribute to the meat industry but still not perfect...i like to think they would have invented a cure by then

[littlewinker]

How does a rescue dog contribue less to meat production than another pet dog? Not sure I follow your logic on that one....

I just meant there are rescue animals around that need to be looked after as pets and imo it's a lesser eveil to look after one, although that's probably because I don't see the suffering in farms every day. If you think for every dog how many animals are killed? what, 50 a year? but it's horrible to put a doggy down i suppose because suffering of farm animals is so common place i still automatically put their lives behind "domestic" animals.

I even fell for the "zoos are great for re-introduction into the wild and research etc" stuff they tell everyone...I'm glad I know better than to give them my money now.

I don't think that about most zoos but there are special places usually where humans don't visit that breed animals especially for what i think are good reasons, so really they aren't zoos anyways

[littlewinker]

Is it wrong to give the animal a second chance? There is no reason why there shouldn't be a pet industry but there should be more restricitions. There should be more places like battersea dogs home, who castrate/spay dogs and cats and then work to find people who have the correct enviroment for the pet.

Castrating and spaying causes suffering, and it's making choices for the animal and taking away the natural urge to re produce. Animals have to be farmed and killed for some animals kept as pets.

But it's your opinions and all that, I'm just saying my piece cos i like to

[New]

Castrating and spaying causes suffering, and it's making choices for the animal and taking away the natural urge to re produce. Animals have to be farmed and killed for some animals kept as pets.

But it's your opinions and all that, I'm just saying my piece cos i like to

How is it suffering? My dog was over it in a day. i know its an operation but still, it stops mindless people breeding them which is mostly over done and the mother is caused more pain that way. And again more lives are brough into the world and sold on and the animals are mistreated. I have seen it myself.
So you say all dogs should be alowed to reproduce,many mother dogs losing their lives through the compications of breeding and being over bred, and even more animals being put to sleep because there is no room for them, its the lesser of 2 evils to me

[littlewinker]

That's why there should be no pet industry, then NONE of that would happen! But rescued animals are ok as someone has to look after them in the meantime.

I say animals should be allowed to carry out their natural instincts, including breeding, but thats too inconvenient for humans therefore they shouldn't be kept as pets then it wouldn't even be be a problem.

ps. think how you would feel if I chose for you to be sterilized. Humans are animals too!

[New]

That's why there should be no pet industry, then NONE of that would happen! But rescued animals are ok as someone has to look after them in the meantime.

I say animals should be allowed to carry out their natural instincts, including breeding, but thats too inconvenient for humans therefore they shouldn't be kept as pets then it wouldn't even be be a problem.

ps. think how you would feel if I chose for you to be sterilized. Humans are animals too!

I agree to an extent but we are in this situation so we should do what we can to make sure the animals are given propper care. I would much rather look after the animals than them put to sleep.

[littlewinker]

that's what I think, look after the animals that are already domesticated but don't contribute the the pet trade continuing

[New]

that's what I think, look after the animals that are already domesticated but don't contribute the the pet trade continuing

oh right, yeah i agree with that, but most people wont so many animals are going to be 'mass produced' to keep up with the demand which is sad

[RubyDuby]

littlewinker- earlier in the thread we were discussing the fact that current domesticated cats and dogs never existed in nature. i'm not so sure what their natural instincts would be. It would be completely irresponsible to let them breed IMO. Also, it is fairly simple to feed a domesticated dog a vegan diet without complications (I'm sure there are exceptions). I'm not sure this is the case for cats however.

[cobweb]

^ agreed, ruby, with all points - most dogs do very well without meat and positively love the variety of fruit, veg and plant proteins.

[New]

littlewinker- earlier in the thread we were discussing the fact that current domesticated cats and dogs never existed in nature. i'm not so sure what their natural instincts would be. It would be completely irresponsible to let them breed IMO. Also, it is fairly simple to feed a domesticated dog a vegan diet without complications (I'm sure there are exceptions). I'm not sure this is the case for cats however.

and my dog, she cant keep anything that isnt meat based down so she would starve. But shes really my mums dog so it dosnt really effect my views if you get what i mean

[RubyDuby]

oh right, yeah i agree with that, but most people wont so many animals are going to be 'mass produced' to keep up with the demand which is sad

thousands of dogs and cats are euthanized daily. they dont need to be mass produced to fill the demand, except for puppies of specific breeds, which mostly end up being abandoned at adulthood, untrained and unadoptable.

[New]

thousands of dogs and cats are euthanized daily. they dont need to be mass produced to fill the demand, except for puppies of specific breeds, which mostly end up being abandoned at adulthood, untrained and unadoptable.

I was talking about other animals like my reptiles

[cobweb]

^ even worse!
i'm pretty sure that 'exotic' pets are wild caught and transported, and/or bred from wild parents and then taken to completely unnatural habitats, aren't they?.

[New]

^ even worse!
i'm pretty sure that 'exotic' pets are wild caught and transported, and/or bred from wild parents and then taken to completely unnatural habitats, aren't they?.

Nope not the ones i keep, well they arnt domesticated but they have been line bred to make man made morphs, so they arnt directly wild caught or captive farmed babies but still someone has to look after them. It is a common misconception that exotics are all wild caught, but many people wouldnt buy wild caught just because of the risk of disease throughout their collections unless it was a rare animal they wanted (i dont think thats right) but still...

[cobweb]

yes but surely their ancestors were wild caught in the first place, that's my point?
it's all very unnatural anyway isn't it?

[New]

yes but surely their ancestors were wild caught in the first place, that's my point?
it's all very unnatural anyway isn't it?

well even the common dog today would have had to start as a wild animal they didnt just happen. There is nothing natural about keeping an animal in a tank but its all down to opinion. People say to me its not nautral not to eat meat, im not going to start eating meat because someone disagreed with me

[cobweb]

yes i realise that dogs didn't just appear, though i believe that they have long lived with humans.
i'm actually pretty much anti any kind of breeding/captivity programmes and certainly wouldn't even consider 'buying' any sort of animal these days.

are your reptiles creatures that you 'rescued'?.

[New]

yes i realise that dogs didn't just appear, though i believe that they have long lived with humans.
i'm actually pretty much anti any kind of breeding/captivity programmes and certainly wouldn't even consider 'buying' any sort of animal these days.

are your reptiles creatures that you 'rescued'?.

Yes my reptiles are all rescues as are my dogs, my reptiles were kept in very bad conditions and were in bad health conditions themselves when i got them. anorexic, covered in mites, generally bad. So i gave them their basic housing requirements and a decent meal and a trip to the vets now they have come on leaps and bounds. I would have liked them to be in the wild and not have had a bad start to life altogether but they didnt ask to be bred or born so i will give them a nice healthy happy home for the rest of their days.

But i must say i am not againsed breeding endangered animals, its humans fault most of the time anyway.

[cobweb]

well good on you for giving them homes, i think that reptiles are often poorly treated aren't they?.

[New]

well good on you for giving them homes, i think that reptiles are often poorly treated aren't they?.

They are but its down to lazyness, one of my snakes has burns from impropper equipment (an unstatted heatmat) for the sake of 20 pounds. And tbh most pet reptiles are pretty easy to care for, you need a few basic bits and your set.

[Roxy]

My dog has been very sick now for a long time. Her name is Sammy. I was watching I am legend a little while ago with friends. So when the part came on when he has to put the dog down I started crying. She only has a few days left if that. I just wanted to get that out to people that I know love animals as much as I do. Thanks for caring everyone.

I'm really sorry to hear about Sammy. ((((HUGS))))

[mariannetheresa]

i have a dog named albert, a cat named henry, and a parrot named oliver. i am their pet. they are my buddhas. they teach me about unconditional love, and we are a tribe. i am a human animal living with other animals. thats all.its warm and cozy and we all snuggle together all day long. we all need each other equally. albert and henry and oliver were all rescued. i know they want to be here, with their silly human animal who plays with them all day. i am blessed to share my life with them.

[Roxy]

What a lovely little description of your household

[cobweb]

yes, i love that!

[scotch&dry]

First of all, I don't use the word "pet". To me, "pet" implies possession. "Companion animal" or "non-human family member" is usually what I'll say. My family consists of four humans, two cats, a dog and a lot of birds - some in aviaries, four inside.

I don't necessarily agree with the aviaries, but it's my dad's passion and he loves the birds, and I've done a lot of research so I know the birds aren't suffering, so I'm content with not vocalising my feelings about it in order to keep family peace.

Our inside birds, three cockatiels and a sun conure, sleep in "cages" (another term I don't like to use), but are out all day long and are free to roam the house as they please.

I don't think animals should be bred for selling, especially since so many need to be adopted from shelters and such, but I raised Billy myself since a few days after he hatched, and I love him with all my heart. He's my best friend and I can't imagine my life without him.

I firmly agree with having non-human family members, but I think the way the world in general sees "pets" needs improving.

[scotch&dry]

My dog has been very sick now for a long time. Her name is Sammy. I was watching I am legend a little while ago with friends. So when the part came on when he has to put the dog down I started crying. She only has a few days left if that. I just wanted to get that out to people that I know love animals as much as I do. Thanks for caring everyone.

I'm so sorry =(
I cried watching that part of the movie as well, but that's just because I'm really sensative - I can't imagine how it must have felt for you. *hugs* I'm so sorry.

[boatsteem1]

have to disagree about the zoo bit, li'lwinker - animals are (presumably) unaware of whether their own species is becoming extinct so it's only humans (who mostly cause the extinctions in the first place) who get 'upset'. Zoos are just prisons imo, and add to demand for meat also.

A lot of wild animals would be extinct today if it was not for the help from zoological gardens. They help species because they
1) raise public awarness on endangered animals;
2) often donate part of their income to in-situ projects to help endangered species;
3) some times let people donate money directly in the park to support a cause;
4) let scientists study animals in a way that would be impossble in the wild adding to the scientific base of species, which helps conservation;
5) inspire people to work for conservation of species;
6) make people identify with animals in general; and
7) keep animals that are endangered, and if they were to die out in the wild they can reintroduce them. They may also reinforce a population that is on the virge of dying out (white backed woodpeckers are relocated in Sweden, and, possibly Amur leopards will have to be relocated in Russia because they are highly inbred in the wild, just to mention two examples).

Personally, I disagree with keeping animals in captivity, but zoological gardens are my exception (menageries not included). I know for myself that it works because I was inspired by seeing exotic animals in captivity as a child, I know of many projects that have been sponsored by zoos and I've myself studied animals in captivity. A friend of mine studied lynx in captivity and in the wild during the 70's and 80's and his research led to a change in the hunting season for the lynx which was beneficial to the species. A lot of research is also conducted to shed more light on stress and welfare of captive animals. When I worked with pumas a few years ago we had a girl who studied their activity patterns when they were given toys to play with.

This summer I will be working with Amur leopard and snow leopard in Sweden's most beautiful zoological garden, Nordens Ark. Nordens Ark is a pure anti-profit/endangered-animals-only center which takes in visitors to spread information. I will work with a mix of animal caretaking and information for visitors.

I will work with these snowy animals

[Manzana]

I can see the "use" of zoos but I do see them as demeaning for many species. Very often they do not have the space to move around or the facilities to ensure the animals are cared for properly.

In my opinion, natural parks with restricted LARGE enclosures just for those animals would be a much better solution (if still not perfect)... plus, it might well be true that they do help species to survive and for research to be carried out but the reality of it is that those individuals are deprived of the freedom that is their right by the mere fact that they are alive and are individuals...

If the choice for me was to spend life in some of the enclosures that I have seen in MANY zoos (plus be inseminated to see if i can reproduce in captivity, scared by lots of noisy children and parents, etc) or for my whole species to die out, i think i'd be tempted to go for the extinction one.

Plus... just to be cheeky! how can you agree for tigers/snow leopards etc to be fed meat but not cats or dogs? what makes you think that those species just for the mere fact that they are "naturally ocurring/part of evolution" are more deserving as individuals to be fed meat than a dog or a cat (which are partly selected by us)?

Humans are hardly a result of natural selection and yet we all agree that each individual has a right to live (right?)

[Manzana]

PS. I do agree with tigers etc eating meat that they have hunted themselves... but i am struggling to see the difference when we are the ones providing the food to the tigers or pets. My understanding is that you are against keeping "pets" (amongst other reasons)because we kill many other animals to feed them... what is the difference when feeding carnivores in a zoo?

[Aurore]

i've never liked zoos. you'd think a little kid would be amazed to see lions etc..., well i wasn't. like keeping feeding them with meat because "that's what they eat in the wild" when they're encaged has always seemed, to me, pretty ironic and insincere.

as far as pets...i've loved all the animals there have been at home as a whole, individual, animal. my current "pet", a female cat, is not so much my pet than my cat/furry friend. i call her my familiar because she's more of a companion than a pet. to me, pet has always the hidden sense of toy.

[Samber]

humans Started Keep Animals In Captivity, It Is Our Responsibility To Protect Those We Messed With!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Mahk]

humans Started Keep Animals In Captivity, It Is Our Responsibility To Protect Those We Messed With!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Is it our responsibility to continue to breed the glow-in-the-dark breeds we've recently manufactured in labs or are they exempt for some reason and don't deserve our protection and if so please explain why?
Sorry to hit you with such a hard question that I myself can't answer, especially since you are a newcomer, but it is a reality that now that they are here do we have an obligation to continue them?

[Wonderwoman]

This is a great discussion! I have a rescue cat and he is fed a 100% vegan diet. He eats a product called 'Vegan Pet' and we had no problems at all converting him from the standard meat cat food to it. In fact, he's never been so enthusiastic about his food before! You can get vegan pet from various different places...I get it from http://crueltyfreeshop.com.au/

My thinking on this issue is that rescuing an animal and being a compassionate companion to them, contributes something positive to the world. I personally couldn't feed my cat meat food anymore, as I don't want any part in supporting suffering.

[Ames]

I completely disagree with selling animals for profit but do think that domesticated animals need to be cared for. I have never really considered the fact that buying pet food supports the meet industry . . . to be honest I don't feel bad about this - if there was a vegan alternative, or one which did not support such industries I would gladly take it but I got my dog from a shelter (therefore I am not supporting pet shops or breeders) and she needs to eat meat, so i dont think this is something to feel bad about, if that makes any sense!

[RubyDuby]

she doesn't need to eat meat though.
my dogs are vegan, healthy and happy.

[Mahk]

I'm not sure if Bramble still holds the record but up until a few years ago she was said to be the world's oldest dog and she was a vegan. Well, I'm not sure if she never ever had a leather collar, but at least her diet was vegan.

Trying to raise a cat as a vegan however is usually not recommended, even by the companies that make vegan cat food, I hear.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do we have a zoo thread? Although I see many similarities (and differences) maybe we should have a separate zoo poll? Anyone?

[Linxie]

I would like to see an end to animals being bred in captivity, some species in particular. But I know that is not going to happen in my lifetime. I guess the choice is between taking a moral stand and not having any pets in your life, or choosing to help those animals that are in captivity now. I have opted to do what I can for the animals who find themselves in captivity now. I have two rescue birds and I try to give them the best life I can given their circumstances. But obviously if there were any chance they could be returned to the wild, I would let them go. But sadly there isn't

[Ames]

she doesn't need to eat meat though.
my dogs are vegan, healthy and happy.

I honestly have no idea where to get vegan pet food, or to be honest that it even existed! Off to google I go . . .

[Manzana]

Benevo and other brands of companion animals' vegan food are sold in wild oats and fresh and wild (but I have to say I have no idea whether they are balanced or tasty for animals!)

[harpy]

Buying on-line at Veggipets may work out cheaper than getting it in shops and I think they will send out samples (not free though unfortunately)

http://www.veggiepets.com/

Our cats like Amicat (which is vegan I believe) but we do give them other stuff as well.

[Mahk]

I know all you good people love animals (it goes hand in hand with being a vegan) but we can't have a world where only vegans are allowed to adopt pets; omnis obviously also want pets and besides the millions if not billions of abused, neglected, permanently chained, and dogs disposed of in the dog fighting industry, even filthy rich people treat dogs like disposable toys! This makes me so mad!
(yet they shout "But I love my doggies") The pet store in this story deserves a medal.

Same story here. I can't find any more detailed accounts.

[JC]

i feel really guilty because i have some tropical fish from when i was veggie. now i realise that i shouldn't be supporting the fish trade, but what can i do, i already have them. giving them back would give them a worse life, and would mean that the they would be sold on, so promoting the trade. i decided that i'll let them live out their lives in the tank, taking good care of them, and not buy any more. does that sound like the right thing to do?

[Manzana]

The way I see it, they are now your responsibility and the damage is done (some breeder got your money) so I think it is the right thing to do...

I also have goldfish from my veggie days and I am following the same rule. I won't ever buy any other animal but the ones I have need to be looked after.

[JC]

that's a good point, thank you i just feel like less of a vegan by having them, if that makes sense. plus, i have the problem of what to do with the tank in a few years time when they've all gone, it's massive!

[RubyDuby]

sell it.

i had the same issue with an iguana.
Would have never given him away! and will never buy another.

[moggy]

The only animal I've ever lived with that has not been a rescue was a horse I bought 25 years ago, and I do regret the fact that back then I did have him with the intention of riding him, but knew he would always be able to live out his days with me. Anyway, ironically, although only 4 when I got him, he was a walking disaster who was seldom ridden before officially retired.
All my other animals are rescued,(cats, dogs, ponies, sheep and pigs) and I just wish people would stop breeding. Theres too many cats and dogs, and not enough decent homes.
Neutering of all domestic animals should be compulsory.

[KayVegan]

I am vegan and I live with a cat which I do not just consider a "pet" but a companion I am fortunate to share my life with. I neither consider or treat her a replacement for a child or a spouse, etc. I treat her as an equal.

My cat is a meat-eater and she has always been one. My previous vet has always recommended to avoid a vegetarian or vegan diet because it would harm her (there has been a disfunction of her liver in the past). Yes, feeding my cat meat products is an issue for me but I will not change that since she needs to be on a special diet for her kidneys (the problem is related to her age).

So far I was told by the vet and also from others that a vegetarian nutrition for cats could be harmful for them in the long-run. Does anyone have different experiences or knowledge about that? I would like to get these information and discuss them with our vet. Do you know about studies etc.?

I do not see a problem when a vegan is living with an animal. It all depends on HOW the animal is living with you. Is a good caring home provided? I live with a domestic cat and she is happy with it and with me and I do not think or feel that she is trapped or caged in any way.

Personally, when I travel by car I usually find a lot of injured and killed animals (all kind of). Of course I take them to the vet. Even if I find a dead cat I still take it to the vet because I want to find out if it is chiped and if the "owner" can be traced down. Each time I find a dead cat it makes me think whether this cat has lived a happy life since it was running "free". Too many cats I have found which were lying at a hard shoulder at some motorway, cats which have been poisened or shot at, etc. The list is long (unfo). Does that really justify a life outside the house? I disagree. Many of you might have other opinions. But I think if a vegan has so much respect for animals why should you not live with an animal? Doesn't it make sense for a vegan taking care of animals in need?

What I do have a problem with are people who breed animals (cats, dogs, rabbits, etc.). The sanctuaries are packed with animals and there they go ahead breeding more animals of all kind. I consider that wrong.

Again, if you have information about vegetarian / vegan cat food and have made experiences with it (good or bad whatsoever) please share them with me, ok? I'd like to gain more information about it.

[AnneCE]

Again, if you have information about vegetarian / vegan cat food and have made experiences with it (good or bad whatsoever) please share them with me, ok? I'd like to gain more information about it.

There is a book called Obligate Carnivore: Cats, Dogs, and What it Really Means to be Vegan by Jed Gillen which I have had a quick look at. He is very persuasive - you can read a review of it here and look at Jed Gillen's website.

I know the book owner who let me see her copy has vegan dogs and near-vegan cats.

I am planning to adopt a rescue cat this summer and have to think seriously about diet. Especially as I am less than enthusiastic about what goes into commercial petfood. And the main reason cats are said to "need" meat is taurine and that has to be added to most commercial cat food anyway.

I hope other people with more experience than me (who just scanned a book and talked about it to one person) can add to this discussion.

[dreama]

There is a book called Obligate Carnivore: Cats, Dogs, and What it Really Means to be Vegan by Jed Gillen which I have had a quick look at. He is very persuasive - you can read a review of it here and look at Jed Gillen's website.

That book didn't do much for me. I just didn't like the tone. So I didn't read much of it. Later after Jilli started eating vegan food I looked at it again but it was all on why, instead of how which was what I wanted then. It should have sections on both.

I don't think I would have a vegan cat though. My solution is just not to have cats at all. I have my dog and my rodents instead.