"Pets" - Which of these statements do you agree with?

[Manzana]

Hi lv... maybe you should apply to be a moderator?

[sandra]

I would really love to know what other vegans would suggest we do then with regard to feeding cats. I am genuinely interested and would welcome any constructive advice.

Yes, my cats eat 'tortured animals' but then if we go about our everyday lives and use any transport that involves tyres we are using something that contains a substance from 'tortured animals'. It's back to that old chestnut..............we have to live in this unvegan world and in order to avoid using ANY animal substance we would have to isolate ourselves in a cave somewhere and wait to die.

I'm not being confrontational here and would really like any suggestions as to what I do about looking after 11 cats on a daily basis.

p.s. All the cats have access to a very large garden, complete with trees and perches. We went to great expense to have the garden cat proofed so they can go out in the wind, rain and snow if they wish. I have to say though that they prefer to spend most of their day lying on our beds sleeping!

[Manzana]

Sandra, there is a whole thread on this topic somewhere in the forum....

I made some suggestions (i.e. left over meat from restaurants or supermarkets or even ask your colleagues at work!)... but the point is that whatever you do, you can never be a perfect vegan!

PS. did you know that 30% of the food we buy ends up in the bin? (including meat and fish)

[VeganLu]

Yes, Holly78, I never had a dog. But I read a lot about animals and animal behavior, and have learned about dogs that way. I also learn just by watching and observing. Also, it is common sense that, if a human wants to go and come as they please and not have someone monitoring their freedom, than what makes it right for a human to do so with a dog or a cat. I admit that I am over the top when it comes to this subject, and I apologize to all I have offended.

Of course, using tires, owning a home, etc. is also being non-vegan. I just think that vegans should not have pets. There are no perfect vegans, but we can all try to be one.

[Manzana]

^
so are your cats neutered/spayed? (humans also feel like having their reproductive organs as they please without their freedom being monitored)

[VeganLu]

Hi Sandra: Boy am I being a pest today. You have no choice but to feed your cats meat. Cats would die if you tried to make them vegetarians. I have read about people who are vegans and have turned their dogs into vegetarians, and it is successful, but unfortunately, it would not be successful for a cat.

[VeganLu]

Hi Manzana:

You have added another reason why I think that people should not have pets. YES. I neutered the pregnant female after she gave birth, and I neutered her son as well. Do I think I did the right thing? No. My 2 cats had no say in the matter and I feel bad about it. Of course, I lessen my guilt by saying that I neutered them because I don't want any more unwanted cats to be born, but I can fool myself all I want, but the truth in the matter is that I did something that a true vegan should not do. There are no perfect vegans, and I certainly am not a perfect vegan.

[VeganLu]

To Leedsveg:

Ha. Ha. Ha. Inquisition. Thanks for lightening me up.

[Manzana]

Hi Manzana:

You have added another reason why I think that people should not have pets. YES. I neutered the pregnant female after she gave birth, and I neutered her son as well. Do I think I did the right thing? No. My 2 cats had no say in the matter and I feel bad about it. Of course, I lessen my guilt by saying that I neutered them because I don't want any more unwanted cats to be born, but I can fool myself all I want, but the truth in the matter is that I did something that a true vegan should not do. There are no perfect vegans, and I certainly am not a perfect vegan.

VeganLu,

I think you are too hard on yourself (and on other people too as a result of this)... sometimes in my opinion, there is not a right answer... and then we just have to make do with the answer that we think causes the least suffering...

You did that to your cats because you felt it caused the least suffering. Some people may not walk their dogs as often as they should but the alternative for those dogs may well be worse if they had no home... In the end, we are all trying our best and should not try to antagonise each other...

[leedsveg]

Thanks for lightening me up.

No, I think that would have been the Spanish Inquisition.




leedsveg

[VeganLu]

Thanks Manzana.

You are right. I am being very hard on myself and other vegans. I am going to stop bitching as of now.

[VeganLu]

No, I think that would have been the Spanish Inquisition. leedsveg

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Thanks, I needed that.

[VeganLu]

I got another e-mail. When I mentioned that some people have successfully made their dogs vegetarian, I did not say that I agree with doing such a thing. I do not agree that anyone should make a dog a vegetarian.

[Holly78]

I do not agree that anyone should make a dog a vegetarian.

Dogs are omnivores like people. They do not need to eat animal products and choosing a veg*n diet for them means you are not supporting the animal agriculture industry.

I can understand that if you don't agree with having companion animals you find choosing any diet to be wrong, but surely you can understand that for those who do have companion animals, a veg*n diet is far better than an omnivorous one?

[VeganLu]

To RubyDuby:

I power walk for exercise, and this is how I know what is going on with my "neighbors" and their dogs. I live in the country, and my "neighbors" houses are not visible from my house because there house is quite a distance away from my house. I see these "neighbors" as I walk by their house. I know you care for your dogs. I am not saying that you don't. Being a vegan, I am sure you give them much love. I guess I am so down on having pets because as I am power walking and I pass dogs that are tied up outside and they start barking at me, their guardians come out and yell at them. I tell the guardian that I don't mind and that they are just being dogs, but as I am walking away, the guardian is still yelling at the dog.

[missbettie]

^ but not every person treats their animal friends that way, especially ruby, she treats her furbabies like her kids...i mean she takes them to doggie day care for crying out loud!

there are unfortunately people that shouldn't be given the privilege of caring for animals, just like there are people that shouldn't be given the privlege of having kids.

I personally think that if you have the opportunity to help animals by rescuing them from a shelter where they would otherwise DIE, you should definately do it, and I do. all my babies are rescues.

[wendy]

you seem so narrow minded ieeek

[missbettie]

^ me?

[sandra]

Sandra, there is a whole thread on this topic somewhere in the forum....

I made some suggestions (i.e. left over meat from restaurants or supermarkets or even ask your colleagues at work!)... but the point is that whatever you do, you can never be a perfect vegan!

PS. did you know that 30% of the food we buy ends up in the bin? (including meat and fish)

Thanks for replying Manzana!

That's a great idea asking for leftovers etc and would probably work if I only had one or two cats but I really don't think I could provide enough for 11 cats everyday by doing that.

Anyway, I think cat and dog food is 'left over' from animals that humans eat anyway. I found this on a website about 'pet' food:-

The nutrients that enter into the composition of products are found in meat, fish, cereals and vegetables or are supplied in the form of supplements. The industry therefore uses meat by-products, poultry pieces or leftovers from the fish filleting industry that are mixed with vegetable materials (cereals, legumes...).

So, in a way it's stuff that is going to be thrown away anyway...........a bit like using left over restaurant food.

I'm not saying I'm happy with this...........I'm certainly not but I can't see any other way around this problem.

[fiamma]

The truth is that our society has "denaturalised" the lives of cats and dogs; they do not live as they would do in the wild.

But Man has done this, and we cannot simply undo what has been done by abandoning all domaestic animals to their fate. It's such a complex issue, there is no blanket solution, and all we can do in our own way is do the best we can and do the least harm.

Amen.

[BlackCats]

Companion animals are a tricky subject. I don't believe having or not having rescued animals makes a person more or less vegan. One could argue that letting cats out to kill wildlife is unvegan. You can argue that letting animals die in shelters or on the streets is unvegan. You could argue that feeding cats vegan food is unvegan. You could argue feeding cats non-vegan food is unvegan. You could argue keeping cats inside is unvegan. Everybody is right and everybody is wrong depending on the angle. It's not really fair to look down at your nose at people who have an equally "vegan" perspective.

You could also argue that by rescuing unwanted animals we are helping the pet industry to continue. If there weren't kind people willing to take animals into their homes then maybe the government would bring in strict laws regarding pet breeding. I am coming around to the idea that it would be better to not have companion animals at all but I still will rescue cats and probably a dog when/ if I move to a house with a bigger garden. I would definitely try a dog on a veggie/vegan diet.

[Manzana]

Thanks for replying Manzana!

That's a great idea asking for leftovers etc and would probably work if I only had one or two cats but I really don't think I could provide enough for 11 cats everyday by doing that.

11 cats that must be one crazy household to live in

I don't know if the argument about "left overs" is correct:

In a study on the impacts of the pet food industry on world fish and seafood supplies, researchers estimate that 2.48 million metric tonnes of fish are used by the cat food industry each year.[39][40] It was suggested that there needs to be "a more objective and pragmatic approach to the use of a limited and decreasing biological resource, for human benefit." Marine conservation activist Paul Watson argues that the reduction in forage fish such as those commonly used in cat food (sardines, herring, anchovy etc.) negatively affects fish higher up the food chain like cod, tuna and swordfish, not to mention marine mammals and birds.[41]

I think if I had cats I would feed them vegan cat biscuits combined with left overs I could find/scavenge but then again maybe this is wishful thinking...

[harpy]

I don't know if the argument about "left overs" is correct

I think that depends a bit on what type of food you buy - some is made from food that humans might otherwise eat, and some is made from byproducts that humans wouldn't eat. There is a bit of discussion here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...rbon-emissions

[Manzana]

Good article, thanks Harpy!

[wendy]

No, sorry. I meant Veganlu

[missbettie]

oh ok, i was a bit worried.

[Ruziko]

I'm against breeding animals for the pet industry. I'm only for adopting/rescue. Pro spay/neuter. I would like to see an end to the entire pet industry. Doubt it'll happen in my life time though. I also don't like seeing people keeping birds/fish etc as 'pets'...basically anything that are kept in a glass cage or cage.

[rxseeeyse]

I don't know but I embraced the idea of having a new family member into my family. I really really really adore cats personally. And I think I make great friends with them and they are really sweet...But anyway I don't support puppy mill and I would get my cat from shelter if I ever get one...I used to have cats long time ago but they all died from poisons others spread on the ground intended to kill rats...So I'm not really sure outdoor is a good idea but on the other hand I don't support caging animals. But since I'm vegan now I don't know what would I feed my cat if I ever have one in the future...I would love too but I don't know the solution...it's a complicated problem for me.
oh yes, I'm totally against spay or neuter! I think it's a right for animals to fall in love too. But now there's a new problem should I stop cats to have babies? really, this whole thing is complicated and I don't know what to do!

[rxseeeyse]

Hi Sandra: Boy am I being a pest today. You have no choice but to feed your cats meat. Cats would die if you tried to make them vegetarians. I have read about people who are vegans and have turned their dogs into vegetarians, and it is successful, but unfortunately, it would not be successful for a cat.

I don't know much about the matter but supposely we can make cats vegan too and there's actually vegan cats food. But I think we need to get their urine checked or something checked occasionally to make sure they are alright on vegan diets. And also add enzymes to their food helping digestions. But still I really don't know if having a cat is a good idea...although I really really want one, as a companion of course.

[thegoob]

It is wrong to keep animals as pets. In a perfect world there would not be any domestic animals. But, as things are, someone has to take care of the ones that are already here.

All domesticated animals should not be allowed to breed. These animals exist only because of human ignorance and should not be brought into the future. It is harmful for these animals to be in captivity and allowing them to breed is perpetuating this harm.

Spaying and neutering is a necessary harm, in order to bring an eventual end to the use of animals as pets. These animals are not natural and cannot be treated as natural when it comes to breeding. It's selfish to continue allowing these creatures to be born into slavery.

Also, as far as cats are concerned, it is very much possible to keep them healthy with vegan foods and supplements. But, it requires more effort and expense than keeping a cat healthy on a non-vegan diet. Most people are too selfish/lazy to do it though. It's 100% about maintaining proper PH balance.

[patientia]

I agree about not allowing domestic animals to breed.

What do you mean by pH balance? I thought commercial vegan cat food (like Ami Cat) contains everything that cats need.

[thegoob]

I agree about not allowing domestic animals to breed.

What do you mean by pH balance? I thought commercial vegan cat food (like Ami Cat) contains everything that cats need.

Cats are meant to have acidic urine and a meat based diet helps to achieve this. If you feed a cat 100% kibble or plant based foods without supplements there can be a problem with their system becoming alkaline were magnesium, ammonium, and phosphate crystals form in their urine and can cause urinary tract problems/injuries if not treated. As you can imagine it is very painful for the affected individual.

Anyway, commercially available vegan cat foods may or may not have everything cats need, but they are not lacking anything that available animal based foods have. But, be sure to have any cats in your care tested on a regular basis to make sure their urine is not turning alkaline and give supplements when necessary.

[patientia]

Thanks! I don't have a cat, but am considering adopting when I move.

[Laura]

I think it's OK to have pets. They need somewhere to live and someone to take care of them, since they don't have the skills to survive in the wild (unless they were born and raised feral).

I do think all pets should be kept from reproducing, and I think it's wrong and horrible to breed animals, buy animals, or sell animals. If we provide them with food and shelter, and let them roam freely outside, they live a comfortable life without being trapped.

I live with my parents and we have 2 adopted cats that are "indoor" cats. I think it's horribly wrong, but I can't do anything about it, because my parents refuse to change their minds.

I also think there's nothing wrong with feeding pets vegan food. There is not a single nutrient in existence that cannot be derived from plants, so it's perfectly possible to come up with vegan pet food and supplements. Just like humans shouldn't eat meat when they don't have to, other animals shouldn't eat meat when they don't have to.

Finally, I don't think you have to avoid the term "my pet". "Pet" is shorter and more convenient than "companion animal" or whatever else, and the term "my" doesn't imply ownership- I don't own "my" sister, do I?

[animal-crackers]

While there are healthy animals being put to sleep for no other reason than they cannot find a home or place in a rescue, then i will continue to offer a home to any that i feel i can give a happy life to.
I would never buy an animal from a pet shop, or breeder. I wish that selling animals from shops was banned completely. Breeding of any animals should, at least, be carefully monitored, and only allowed by people who are vetted first and then closely monitored. Each animal should only be allowed to have a limited amount of litters, and all animals rehomed should be neutered.
All people wishing to home an animal should be checked first to make sure they can offer the animal a decent home, and know how to care for that animal correctly.
The minimum size requirements for cages should be much higher. I find it hearbreaking and unbelievable that shops are allowed to sell some of the ridiculously small cages that they do. Personally i hate seeing any animal in a cage, but at the very least, laws need to be brought in to give animals more space/freedom.
The above is only my opinion ofcourse, but that's all that i can give xx

[rxseeeyse]

I don't know, I agree it is true if they keep reproducing it will only bring the new lifes misery, but I also don't know if it is alright to try to eliminate an entire race just because we think their life is sad...there's no possible way that we can make the cats and dogs go back and live in wild?

[Laura]

I never considered it that important to prevent specific species from dying out. What I care about is the life of an individual creature. No animal should be murdered, but if all the Super-Endangered Pandas or whatever die peacefully in their old age, is that really wrong?

[bradders]

that's kinda what I think, and more specifically where there are breeds of animals that spend their entire life in pain as a result of their breeding I honestly feel that they should be allowed to die out (obviously not killed)

[leedsveg]

It's the way I want to go, dying painlessly in my sleep in old age (preferably not when I'm driving).

lv

[animal-crackers]

I think its sad if certain animals are endangered only because humans have taken away their natural habitat, food sources or killed the animals themselves for sport, fur or weird medicinal ingredients. Nature and evolution should be the only deciding factor.
Bradders, i completely agree with you about animals suffering from being bred to look a certain way, again its humans interfering where they shouldn't. Breeding dogs to have squashed faces, folds in their skin, droopy eyelids etc is just wrong. This is one of the reasons i hate Crufts so much

[tin_can]

I never considered it that important to prevent specific species from dying out. What I care about is the life of an individual creature. No animal should be murdered, but if all the Super-Endangered Pandas or whatever die peacefully in their old age, is that really wrong?

Big +1.

[rxseeeyse]

well I might be against the common vegan view point then, since so many people agree with eliminating one race because they have a sad life. But anyhow I think it is totally wrong to eliminate any race just because they are sad...whether it's by killing or forbid them to reproduce. and that's why it's such a hard issue with me with pets...or panda...although I do recognize their lives as sad...although I don't know what they think really since I don't speak their language.

[Laura]

I wouldn't support killing any animal, but I think there's a difference between intentionally ending a species and allowing it to end on its own. In my example of the pandas, I wasn't saying that we should prevent them from reproducing... but if they don't reproduce, that's OK. There's no reason to force them to breed just so the species will live on.

Most breeding of pets is forced, and I think that's very wrong. Right now it's more prudent to spay/neuter pets, since there are already so many without homes. If someday the number of pets gets down to a level where we don't need animal shelters, maybe we can stop spaying/neutering.

[Maître]

I wouldn't support killing any animal, but I think there's a difference between intentionally ending a species and allowing it to end on its own. In my example of the pandas, I wasn't saying that we should prevent them from reproducing... but if they don't reproduce, that's OK. There's no reason to force them to breed just so the species will live on.

I agree forcing them to breed and live on just to fulfil the human need to see nice cudly or interesting animals is just another way of exploiting nature for the selfish needs of man, but I think the arguement is that the decline of many species is directly linked to human interference such as use of pesticides and other chemicals which result in infertility and other problems in many animals.

I'm not actually sure where I stand on that though, obviously the non-interference approach is best and let nature run it's course - but if other humans are interfering, do we have an obligation to counter it?

[tin_can]

In my opinion, no. What is done is done, and not by most of us - just by members of our species. I don't think that trying to undo these kinds of things is possible or advisable, and I don't think it would be fair to the individual members of the species concerned to interfere further in the attempt. Also, the fact that humans are interfering doesn't (again IMO) mean that it's not natural.

[harpy]

I'm in favour of trying to conserve endangered wild species if there is a realistic prospect of them being able to live in the wild, which is likely to mean preventing or reversing habitat destruction. I sometimes give money to charities that are trying to do that, e.g. for orang utans. (My reasons for that aren't vegan ones, I just think it's worth preserving species if we can.) I'm against conserving species if it just means keeping a few specimens in captivity with no prospect of release, though.

I think these are separate questions from the ones about domesticated cats and dogs. I would be in favour of conserving any remaining populations of wild cats and dogs but I don't think "releasing" domesticated cats and dogs into the wild is an option in the foreseeable future; they probably wouldn't do well (or like it) and they might also threaten other species.

[thegoob]

I don't know, I agree it is true if they keep reproducing it will only bring the new lifes misery, but I also don't know if it is alright to try to eliminate an entire race just because we think their life is sad...there's no possible way that we can make the cats and dogs go back and live in wild?

Cats and dogs being used for pets are not like natural animals. They were made by humans by "selective breeding." Meaning people selected a specific animal with attributes they liked and forced them to breed with another animal with similar features and kept breeding and inbreeding them until they got an animal who's offspring always had those desired features. As new attributes became desirable, they were incorporated. These animals were created in order to be used.

When the last domestic animal dies, it is not an extinction. The natural members of their species will continue living and breeding as normal. Also, not allowing domestic animals to breed is not about bringing the end of a race "because we think they are sad," it is an attempt at correcting the ignorant decisions people have been making for the past 15,000+ years we have been domesticating animals.

[rxseeeyse]

thanks guys for replying to my concern. I agree that it is wrong to breed animals for human entertainment. And I aslo realized that being domistic animals they are, if I let them have babies I won't be able to take care of that many and would have to eventually give them away...and I won't know what would happens to them...maybe something awful...maybe this is not a matter of choice when comes to spaying/neutering. this forum is making me thinking a lot more thanks again guys.

[tin_can]

Also, not allowing domestic animals to breed is not about bringing the end of a race "because we think they are sad," it is an attempt at correcting the ignorant decisions people have been making for the past 15,000+ years we have been domesticating animals.

I personally feel that these kinds of attempts are possibly unfair on the individual animals concerned. Their ancestry is not their fault. The domestication of animals is a hugely complicated thing, and I don't feel it's possible to simply 'undo' mistakes (or decisions that we feel were mistakes) that have been made in the past.

It's something that I struggle with, because I don't want domesticated animals to suffer, but I also don't want their rights to be infringed. (I feel that individuals and their rights are important, but that a whole species, or any other group of individuals, doesn't have any rights.) I don't have an answer.

[rxseeeyse]

i think i'm on the same side with tin_can, that's why I don't know if I will ever have a companion animal...