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Re: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'? Poll planned.
Given that many dogs are Alpha within the human home, could the question be 'Is it right for dogs to keep humans as pets?' Alpha dogs don't leave home when they make top dog, they don't turn and kill their owners, no, instead they lay back and let their human subs do their bidding. Should we ban pet keeping because its cruel to humans, making them go out to work to feed a scavenger that has by emotional manipulation worked his way into the family home. I find that question about as logical as the debate over whether it's right for humans to 'keep' pets. Pet keeping is for the most part a two way deal, the pet gets virtually everything it wants from an often submissive or in cat speak 'inferior' being, and the human get the joy and companionship of a wonder of nature.
Of course there are pets that would be happier living free and there are those that will always try to get a human provider, dogs being the obvious ones.
I do think though that if the question is asked in that form there should also be others asked with it, namely 'is it right to take away the right of a human being to have close contact with animals', 'is it right to take away human liberty and free will when it does not cause tangible suffering or death?' and 'is it right to take away the freedom of animals to choose to live with humans?'.
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Re: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'? Poll planned.
Unfortunately not all 'pet' owners are that clued up about how to provide everything an animal needs though. My Grandparent's neighbours had a pedigree Shnauzer. He was fed egg and bacon for breakfast every morning..and given a bath every day...went out for a quick crap in the morning and back in again to watch TV with them for the rest of the day....They took him to the vets because his skin was going all funny......Maybe there should be some kind of test that people pay to take to decide whether or not they are capable of looking after an animal.....
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Re: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'? Poll planned.
Fiamma, I guess what I'm asking (not stating) is, "Would it not be hypocritical for vegans to allow for pet ownership for themselves, yet disallow it for non-vegans, because they fear non-vegans would abuse the privilege and justify having public zoos, as well?" Here in the US, where private gun ownership (with restrictions) is legal (:mad: ), a common theme you hear from people who own guns is "I have guns because I'll use them safely. I just don't want "bad guys" to be allowed to have guns."
I gave links to the meanings of the slang terms I used in case they were "American slang" only, as opposed to universal "English language slang". It's hard for me to know the difference. I'm sorry, I'll stop that. In reading other posts here on the forum, I find I have to look up a lot of the words and phrases. In "American" :rolleyes: , to "take the piss out of someone" would mean sticking a catheter into their bladder in order to extract urine! :)
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Re: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'? Poll planned.
I'm sorry if I came over heavy-handed Mahk, my apologies. It's just such a complex topic, and one that seems to encompass so many issues. It's certainly turning into an interesting thread :) Thanks for your post, I appreciate it.
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Re: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'? Poll planned.
This is a tricky one... I guess so, but in general, people who aren't caring for their animals properly shouldn't be able to keep them.
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Re: Poll planned: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'?
Quote:
Tigerlily
Could we mention how we might be okay with cats/dogs/bunnies but not exotic pets like lizards/snakes.
would you be able to give a home to a lizard, snake or other exotic pet if it was a rescue animal which would have been killed otherwise?
what about breeding and buying/ selling of bunnies, cats, dogs? Is that OK?
What about non vegan dead meat pet food?
This poll looks like it could be a minefield!
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Re: Poll planned: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'?
Quote:
Tigerlily
Could we mention how we might be okay with cats/dogs/bunnies but not exotic pets like lizards/snakes.
'
Should it make a difference what people keep? They all have something in common. Living, breathing, creatures. Why should it be okay to keep a cat but not a reptile? I thought Cats were concidered exotic. :confused:
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Re: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'? Poll planned.
I think there is a differance between a relationship with a common household 'pet' who can be trusted to roam freely and an exotic animal that often has to be caged. So I would say yes for certain animals and no for exotics.
I have rats and dogs and I've also had cats in the past. You know when a dog is happy. They wag their tail. Cats purr and rats Brux.
I also have chinchillas and I did have a couple of Snakes in my bedroom for a few months. My ex flat mate also used to keep lots of reptiles. (The snakes in my bedroom were originally her's). Anyway unlike cats, dogs or rats there is no clear way of knowing when these animals are happy or sad. Also from personal experience I've found the 'collector' mentality seems to be more evident in those that keep exotic animals rather then those that keep cats, dogs, or rats. There is more evidence with some exotic species such as birds and reptiles that some are still being caught from the wild and being passed off as 'captive bred'. You wouldn't be able to do this with a truely domesticated animal.
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Re: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'? Poll planned.
Quote:
magpie
Should we ban pet keeping because its cruel to humans, making them go out to work to feed a scavenger that has by emotional manipulation worked his way into the family home. I find that question about as logical as the debate over whether it's right for humans to 'keep' pets. Pet keeping is for the most part a two way deal, the pet gets virtually everything it wants from an often submissive or in cat speak 'inferior' being, and the human get the joy and companionship of a wonder of nature.
I love this. This is kind of the relationship I have with my dogs, except that they are not cats and so do not view me as a slightly scuzzy being who is "beneath" them. Emotional manipulation...oh yes. Those big shiny eyes that seem to shimmer with tears every morning when it's time for me to go to work. I find myself reminding them that I have to go out and earn money in order to maintain their lifestyle. That is true, but it's also true that I wouldn't care about coming home if they weren't here. This would be just a box I live in without them to give it emotional warmth. I rarely go anywhere except to work and to go buy food because I prefer to be with them than anywhere else.
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Re: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'? Poll planned.
i also think this is a very important issue to discuss, but i agree with Mahk that my biggest problem with keeping rescue cats (it's obvious to me that people should only keep "pets" that are rescue animals, the pet trade is horrible) is that many people, vegan or otherwise, feed them meat. so could the last option, or an added option, be formulated in a way that "it's ok to keep rescue "pets" if they are fed a vegan diet." ?
i know that there are a lot of vegan cats but some cats seem to have a problem turning to a vegan diet, that's one of the reasons to why i couldn't keep a rescue cat. i also feel very sad for the many cats that are kept indoors always. sorry for straying from the subject.
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Re: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'? Poll planned.
Re: the vegan/non vegans keeping pets aspect is one that really grates with me, as how can non vegans say they love animals, while sitting with their pets eating a bacon butty ? (them, not the pet)
I have a rabbit, and have often questioned myself over this, but my rabbit is well looked after with ample space to roam about, he is not locked in a small hutch with no space to excercise, he is taken to the vets regullarly for check ups and injections, and seems generally happy. (he does look lonely sometimes, which gets to me) but basically he doesnt suffer in any way, and surely at the end of the day, as vegans, that is what we are aiming for.
Vets, how can vets eat meat ?? It just doesnt equate. :mad:
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Re: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'? Poll planned.
Maybe just have a poll that asks "do you have a pet?" I have 2 dogs and my rationale is that they could run away if they wanted, unlike a fish or caged animal. Of course, could they really run away (or have they been too domesticated) and if they did would they survive? I don't know, but they seem to like me and I dig them.:) I bought them from a nice farm lady. Boy, that sounds bad now that I think about it - "bought them". I do feed them regular meat dog food just because I assumed it's what they needed and I haven't researched yet whether a vegan diet would be good for them. I feel I have had my hands full just reassuring myself that my kids will be healthy. I obviously need to look into it though.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I never really thought about having a pet from this perspective before and I also thought being vegan was about animal rights, protection, and compassion. Part of me being vegan is loving animals and that means having them in my life in some form.
I have a cat, whom I rescued from a shelter and two guinea pigs that I rescued from a lab and I care for them dearly. This idea has already mentioned by others but we have a mutual relationship. I don't own them perse, we just live together and care for each other. My cat comes and goes as he pleases but insists on sleeping next to me each evening. The guinea pigs have substantial freedom (I let them out each evening and they have a large habitat that I built for them) and they absolutely adore following us around.
I guess when I think about it I believe in rescuing domesticated animals and offering a loving home. I don't agree with breeding programs or owning an exotic pet, including reptiles. Our homes provide unnatural habitats for animals like snakes. If we need to invest in special gear, like heating lamps, I think we are doing those animals an injustice. I also think that animals in zoos and other confined arena's are not ours to exploit. An elephant should have miles to roam and should not be doing tricks under a tent.
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Re: Poll planned: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'?
Quote:
herbwormwood
What about non vegan dead meat pet food?
This poll looks like it could be a minefield!
lol yeah, good luck with it, Korn!
my thread on whether people agree to neutering pets or not
http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13426 certainly caused a lot of mayhem !!
i must say, this forum has some well serious topics !!
As for keeping pets, well i guess it's not really the right thing to do but some animals keep us, like cats for instance, for whom we are their devoted slaves :D
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Yes, I've wondered how someone can claim to be vegan if they feed their companion animals meat or meat-based food. Or food with meat by-products in it. Basically, anything with the tiniest bit of dead animal corpse. Isn't part of being vegan NOT supporting industries that support the slaughter of animals? And not BUYING animal products? I think that if you are feeding it to your animal companion, you are endorsing the slaughter of animals. :( How can anyone go on about animal rights and how terrible it is that animals are so cruelly slaughtered and then turn around and buy some of their flesh to feed to the animal living in their house????
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I know a dog can thrive on a vegan diet but can cat's be vegan?
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Just to add - I don't think a distinction can necessarily be drawn between a caged animal like a rodent or a non caged animal like a dog. The fact is that both have been domesticated by humans and there is no difference between keeping a mouse in a cage, a dog in a house or a horse in a stable. Space wise - relative to the size of the animal - it may be that the mouse has more space!
Regarding feeding a meat based diet - I do not think it can be vegan to do this as it would mean supporting the slaughter of animals for pet food.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
Klutz
Yes, I've wondered how someone can claim to be vegan if they feed their companion animals meat or meat-based food. Or food with meat by-products in it. Basically, anything with the tiniest bit of dead animal corpse. Isn't part of being vegan NOT supporting industries that support the slaughter of animals? And not BUYING animal products? I think that if you are feeding it to your animal companion, you are endorsing the slaughter of animals. :( How can anyone go on about animal rights and how terrible it is that animals are so cruelly slaughtered and then turn around and buy some of their flesh to feed to the animal living in their house????
The argument I can see for this is that being vegan is a moral choice, most non human animals do not have this capacity for moral choice; should we force our moral choices on to them if they live with us?
Personally I think the obvious decision here is not to live with animals that would normally be carnivorous or omnivorous.
But I have problems with decisions being forced on others.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
But, if you are an omnivore feeding your dog meat, aren't you then "forcing" your choice on the dog? Really, no matter what, YOU are choosing the food for your dog and no matter what it is, it is YOUR choice. It's not like the dogs are going up and down the aisle in the supermarket saying, "hmmm, I think I'll have some of this tonight."
Anyway, I am certainly not forcing food choices on my dogs. If they refused to eat it, I certainly wouldn't shove it down their throats. They LOVE what they eat. I think their diet of a wide variety of whole foods is a lot better for them (and more delicious to them ) than the kibble the average person feeds their dog.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I feed my cat meat-based meals. Well, I consider this a good opportunity to get some feedback, and to more fully think through it...
I am aware of meatless food for cats but have not actually seen the product. Has anyone here successfully, exclusively, fed a meatless diet to a cat? I have seen claims from the producer of a particular food that all will be well doing so; my vet disagrees. It would be nice to hear first-hand from someone, whatever the result, who has tried a meatless diet for a cat. Anyone?
Had Snowboots not adopted me, I wonder how my viewpoint would differ. :confused:
On the one hand I would not then have feelings of possible wrongdoing through my purchases of meat products; on the other I hope anyway I would consider how desperate she was and how, unquestionably, her life has benefited from our companionship.
What that is getting at is that I (and this is most certainly just my thoughts as I am a new vegan and wouldn't anyway likely want to project my views) don't think of being a vegan in terms of NOT - - NOT supporting industries that support the slaughter of animals or NOT buying animal products - but rather in terms of DO - DO help animals in need and DO support industries that avoid the killing/exploitation of animals.
Cats eat meat, by nature. Obviously, the conditions of the animals used to produce catfood are not natural. Does this mean that cats therefore are to not eat meat? Is it a vegan solution to simply not live with an animal companion? I viewed it, when the situation struck me, that to do so would have been more an avoidance than a solution.
So, should a stray cat, for example, dart inside a house, obviously in need of care, what is the vegan solution, beginning to end, for the occupant of the house?
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Hi Kevin2
I have 2 cats, when I was vegetarian they ate meat - I didn't know about alternatives. They received tinned and dry food. They threw up a lot due to bolting the canned food and so we put them on just biscuits. About a year and a half ago we found out about vegan cat food and after much careful thought and research we decided to try. We changed them over slowly and the cats were fine - it was just the same as changing from one biscuit brand to another. The cats like their biscuits very much. They seem fine on them - they are fit and healthy. Recently Benevo brought out a canned food and we bought some of these so we could give the cats a treat occasionally - they quite like this as well. They aren't interested in other food stuffs put on their plate but they will sometimes hang around and lick our dinner plates when we have finished!
I feel that cats do not eat beef, lamb etc naturally anyway and certainly not in a biscuit form and so this is no more unnatural a choice than feeding meat to my cats.
It is difficult and I think you just have to make a decision you feel comfortable with and just know that you are doing your best in the situation you are in.
Monday x
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Kevin2, if you join the Companion Animals area, you will see there are threads about that topic there. To join go to your User Control Panel, click on Group Memberships, then Join Group.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
This may be a bit obscure.. but, anyways..
I can't see why my living with animals could be considered as wrong. I love my cats and though their life may not be entirely a life of freedom, i.e. I cannot let them out due to the neighbourhood I live in.. I don't outwardly see my animals suffering due to their life with me. And .. in an obscure note.. me.. as a human :
I didn't ask to live, but now that I am living I am happy to be alive. My life is constrained by SO MANY FACTORS its ridiculous.. I have to deal with media, people, expectations.. life.. we all know how difficult it can get, but I would still rather choose to be ALIVE. My cats do not suffer impending slaughter, I do not hit them.. hurt them..
I play with them, they have many toys, get fed well (regular cat food .. eepp.. but that will be changing soon).. and most of all, I love them unconditionally.
Anyways, if I didn't agree with the life of a pet in a GOOD home.. I couldn't agree with myself living either. I don't know if that makes sense... but.. I didn't choose to live.. my life is clearly not a bed of roses as I am living in a world that is apparently against my morals but I still have to play into society in order to get along. In order for me to GET OUT of society and to live a life more environmentally friendly I would need additional finances.. but in order to get those finances I ultimately have to play into society. Get a career, etc.. make some money.. who knows. I just think that if I am going to say that the life of a 'pet' is wrong because they are being outwardly controlled by humans.. well .. the life of ME as a human is wrong because my whole entire world is controlled by humans. Im not sure if this is where this post should be.. and its alittle obscure.. but.. thereya go.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
Holly78
Just to add - I don't think a distinction can necessarily be drawn between a caged animal like a rodent or a non caged animal like a dog. The fact is that both have been domesticated by humans and there is no difference between keeping a mouse in a cage, a dog in a house or a horse in a stable. Space wise - relative to the size of the animal - it may be that the mouse has more space!
I disagree. My dog gets at least 2 hours worth of walks every day. Although tecnically speaking my rats live in a cage, the cacge door is open. They can usually come and go as they please except when I am out or there is visitors.
Unfortunately my chinchilla's have to spend more time in their cage. They have a 3ft x 6ft floor to ceiling cage and I let them out when I can but they are unwilling to get back in their cage sometimes so they can't always go out as I often need help in catching them.
I think 'caged' animals that can be alowed to free range such as rats are no worse off then cats and dogs (and may even be better off then some). However, exotic animals are nearly always caged. Often people who keep exotic animals seem to justify keeping them in very small cages. Chinchilla's need at least 3 times the amount of space that rats get but most chinchillas get far less. I've seen a parrot in a cage I wouldn't have considered big enough for my rats. Also snakes kept in a container the size of a lunch box. Yes, the more common 'pet' animals can also be confined, like confining dogs to crates, and cats to small rooms, but it seems to be done less frequently then it is done with Exotic animals.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
emamaly
This may be a bit obscure.. but, anyways..
I can't see why my living with animals could be considered as wrong. I love my cats and though their life may not be entirely a life of freedom, i.e. I cannot let them out due to the neighbourhood I live in.. I don't outwardly see my animals suffering due to their life with me. And .. in an obscure note.. me.. as a human :
I didn't ask to live, but now that I am living I am happy to be alive. My life is constrained by SO MANY FACTORS its ridiculous.. I have to deal with media, people, expectations.. life.. we all know how difficult it can get, but I would still rather choose to be ALIVE. My cats do not suffer impending slaughter, I do not hit them.. hurt them..
I play with them, they have many toys, get fed well (regular cat food .. eepp.. but that will be changing soon).. and most of all, I love them unconditionally.
Anyways, if I didn't agree with the life of a pet in a GOOD home.. I couldn't agree with myself living either. I don't know if that makes sense... but.. I didn't choose to live.. my life is clearly not a bed of roses as I am living in a world that is apparently against my morals but I still have to play into society in order to get along. In order for me to GET OUT of society and to live a life more environmentally friendly I would need additional finances.. but in order to get those finances I ultimately have to play into society. Get a career, etc.. make some money.. who knows. I just think that if I am going to say that the life of a 'pet' is wrong because they are being outwardly controlled by humans.. well .. the life of ME as a human is wrong because my whole entire world is controlled by humans. Im not sure if this is where this post should be.. and its alittle obscure.. but.. thereya go.
I feel exactly the same. We give each other unconditional love so are both v lucky, but I think my life is more caged than hers is (my cat is able to get out and about), because I am constrained by having to think about her needs so I can't just leave everything and go wandering off and have to conform to the 9-5 consumerist norm.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
veganlinda
I feel exactly the same. We give each other unconditional love so are both v lucky, but I think my life is more caged than hers is (my cat is able to get out and about), because I am constrained by having to think about her needs so I can't just leave everything and go wandering off and have to conform to the 9-5 consumerist norm.
I agree! I don't know how many times I've said to myself that I wish I could be one of my cats. All three have been napping for hours.. and they don't seem to worry that they are supposedly wasting their day away.. not doing more constructive things. Ahh.. I can only dream, I don't think that could even be possible for me to do!
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I watched a TV programme a while ago about an animal shelter in the USA which, somewhere down the line, realised that one of the dogs in their care was particularly intelligent, and would perform tricks when the volunteers came round. They quickly realised that the dog was attracting a lot of attention, and soon they were incorporating all kinds of other dogs into shows, charging people to come and see performances, in order to raise funds to keep their shelter going.
What are your views on this? On the one hand, it allowed the shelter to expand and take in more homeless animals, but on the other hand, the original dog will probably never be put up for adoption to get the home he should have had.
Just goes to show that not all animal rescues are as clear cut as all that.
Personally, I don't have a problem with adopting rescue animals, particularly ex-racing greyhounds who are dumped in their thousands every year. I'd never, ever buy a pet from a petshop or breeder, but I honestly think that as long as the needs of an animal are met, then adopting a poundie is one of the kindest things a person can do.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
Monday
Hi Kevin2
I have 2 cats, when I was vegetarian they ate meat - I didn't know about alternatives. They received tinned and dry food. They threw up a lot due to bolting the canned food and so we put them on just biscuits. About a year and a half ago we found out about vegan cat food and after much careful thought and research we decided to try. We changed them over slowly and the cats were fine - it was just the same as changing from one biscuit brand to another. The cats like their biscuits very much. They seem fine on them - they are fit and healthy. Recently Benevo brought out a canned food and we bought some of these so we could give the cats a treat occasionally - they quite like this as well. They aren't interested in other food stuffs put on their plate but they will sometimes hang around and lick our dinner plates when we have finished!
I feel that cats do not eat beef, lamb etc naturally anyway and certainly not in a biscuit form and so this is no more unnatural a choice than feeding meat to my cats.
It is difficult and I think you just have to make a decision you feel comfortable with and just know that you are doing your best in the situation you are in.
Monday x
Thank you, Monday. I overlooked this reply previously and just want to say now that I appreciate your expressed thoughts on this matter. I have decided against a vegan diet for Snowboots, but, I do appreciate your thoughtful response.
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Re: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'? Poll planned.
i know that there are a lot of vegan cats but some cats seem to have a problem turning to a vegan diet, that's one of the reasons to why i couldn't keep a rescue cat.
I maybe wouldn't worry too much about this. Most of the cats I've known would not stick to the vegan diet anyway..
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
You all seem totally against pet breeding. Obviously, as with all business it should have to be handled ethically and I do appreciate this may not be easy to achieve. But I cant help feeling they perform a valuable role. If all pets were neutered and pet breeders all gone, where would we get our pets from?
It is of course better to rescue a pet as opposed to buying one from a breeders, but I dont think they should be demonised.
On the subject of the poll, I agree with keeping some pets but not others. For example, it is never okay to steal a bird out of the wild and cage it for our amusement, but many animals, cats in particular, choose to live with humans. And where would they be without co-habitation with us? We are after all slowly taking over the world.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
In an ideal world IW ould not agree with pets being kept. And I certainly disagree with breeding. think how many animals are put to sleep each week because nobody wants them
. But I beleive responsible and kind pet owners are essential in contemporary society in order to house those pets irresponsibly bred, unwanted presents, neglected or treated badly. I am here for those animals.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
hazelbunny
You all seem totally against pet breeding.
yes, this is a vegan forum
Quote:
hazelbunny
But I cant help feeling they perform a valuable role.
And that's what exactly?
Quote:
hazelbunny
If all pets were neutered and pet breeders all gone, where would we get our pets from?
If all farms stopped breeding animals, where would we get meat and eggs from?
Other than sickos that go snatching them from the wild, no where. That's the point isn't it?
Quote:
hazelbunny
And where would they be without co-habitation with us?
Damn vegans and not drinking milk. Do they not care about cows? They explode if you don't milk them you know.
Sorry, that's overly flippant even for me. What I'm trying to highlight is the obsurd notion that non human animals in some way need humans; that they lived and evolved for millions of years before domestication through some sort of fluke. Unless you believe that god created us all 437 years ago of course, with animals as our slaves and fossil fuels for our 3 litre engine cars.
Quote:
hazelbunny
We are after all slowly taking over the world.
That's a problem that we need to address ourselves, not use as an excuse for questionable practises we wish to indulge in.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
If you do decide to have a companion animals that been rescued or you want to take in, the most important thing is to make sure you you can look after them properly. They actually demand a lot of time. My dog needs to be walked for nearly two hours a day, its a big commitment in the winter months when you have to get up at 6 to do it and its still dark. Then there are vets bills... if they are ill it costs a lot of money to make them better, I spent 70 quid on a vets bill last week. He's completely worth it but make sure you have the time and money before you take in an animal or
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Breeding animals to sell seems a bit like slave ownership to me, and certainly not justifiable when there are older animals in refuges that would like a good home.
Unlike some people here I don't think it's necessarily cruel to live with e.g. cats and dogs so I suppose I might support some form of non-commercial breeding, but only in the unlikely event that there weren't any unwanted animals already needing homes.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
Mr Flibble
yes, this is a vegan forum
And how is pet breeding not vegan exactly? Have you invented a new definition I dont know about?
Quote:
And that's what exactly?
Would you prefer animals just bred willy nilly in the street? Dont you think that would lead to even more unwanted animals?
Quote:
If all farms stopped breeding animals, where would we get meat and eggs from?
I'm sorry but that is a ridiculous argument. It assumes that pet-keeping is wrong and myself and I'm sure plenty of other vegans dont agree with that. The co-habitation of humans and animals can be wonderful thing and benefits the "pet" animal every bit as much as the human animal, maybe more so. Very often animals will choose to live with humans. Cats are a prime example. Most of them could more than survive without us, but they choose to take advantage of warm houses and food and affection on demand.
Quote:
Other than sickos that go snatching them from the wild, no where. That's the point isn't it?
Where there is wildness, that is fine of course, but there are no wild places left, certainly in the uk, that dogs can roam in packs. Until we live as part of the natural world rather than dominating it, dogs co-habitation with humans is the best way forward imo.
Quote:
Damn vegans and not drinking milk. Do they not care about cows? They explode if you don't milk them you know.
Sorry, that's overly flippant even for me. What I'm trying to highlight is the obsurd notion that non human animals in some way need humans; that they lived and evolved for millions of years before domestication through some sort of fluke. Unless you believe that god created us all 437 years ago of course, with animals as our slaves and fossil fuels for our 3 litre engine cars of course.
I agree animals could look after themselves, but for the way we live. We'd all like to live in a utopian garden of eden where animals (including humans) live wild, the way nature intended, but until that day comes and humans and pets are liberated, we all have to compromise.
Quote:
That's a problem that we need to address ourselves, not use as an excuse for questionable practises we wish to indulge in.
I dont believe pet breeding is questionable, provided it is done with the welfare of the animal in mind. It keeps animals in the world and that is where they want to be :)
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
hazelbunny
And how is pet breeding not vegan exactly? Have you invented a new definition I dont know about?
There is no universally accepted definition of vegan. Generally speaking vegans extend the rights that they wish humans to have to other species.
What if we treated humans under the same rights that animals have in the 'pet' trade; castrating male children, denying humans the right to their desired social structure, to procreate, to articifially breed them with characteristics desirable to people who want to pay money for them etc etc (I'm sure I don't need to continue listing). Would that be acceptable to a vegan?
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hazelbunny
Would you prefer animals just bred willy nilly in the street? Dont you think that would lead to even more unwanted animals?
'unwanted'? It's not about us and what we want!
As I've already stated animals are capable of living without human intervention. There's plenty of animals that live on our streets quite happily - birds, rats, mice, foxes etc. Certainly the ones that we've imported from other climates and those that have been purposely bred through hundreds of generations to not be able to survive life without humans should not just be released onto the streets if we were to suddenly just end the ownership of animals - much like if the same were to happen with farm animals. All vegans (i hope) believe this about domesticated animals bred for food, why are domesticated animals bred for amusement any different?
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MrFlibble
"If all farms stopped breeding animals, where would we get meat and eggs from?"
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hazelbunny
I'm sorry but that is a ridiculous argument.
How so? All I've done is change the wording to something directly comparable. Whether you breed animals for food or 'pets' you're still breeding animals.
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hazelbunny
It assumes that pet-keeping is wrong and myself and I'm sure plenty of other vegans dont agree with that.
Indeed. Korn: when is this poll coming?
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hazelbunny
Where there is wildness, that is fine of course, but there are no wild places left, certainly in the uk, that dogs can roam in packs.
OK, so dogs that roam in packs can't live in the UK anymore. That's our fault. Other canidae (such as foxes) exist in the wild here just fine (except when the bumpkins are out compensating for bedroom problems). With all the extra open land we're going to gain when we stop breeding animals for food (and the crops that they need to survive) there will be more space for animals that can survive in the UK to exist in the wild. Who knows, maybe dogs that roam in packs will be able to survive here again then?
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hazelbunny
We'd all like to live in a utopian garden of eden where animals (including humans) live wild, the way nature intended
Actually I'm quite happy living in the world today. Work sucks sometimes, but I think humans in the UK have life a hell of a lot better than we did 10,000 years ago.
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hazelbunny
but until that day comes and humans and pets are liberated, we all have to compromise.
Yes, which is all the more reason to do something about the situation we're in, not premote a trade in it, thus extending the problem! The two are a complete contradiction.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
Mr Flibble
"There is no universally accepted definition of vegan. Generally speaking vegans extend the rights that they wish humans to have to other species."
I was under the impression that a vegan is a person that doesn't eat or use animal products.
Quote:
Mr Flibble
"What if we treated humans under the same rights that animals have in the 'pet' trade; castrating male children, denying humans the right to their desired social structure, to procreate, to articifially breed them with characteristics desirable to people who want to pay money for them etc etc (I'm sure I don't need to continue listing). Would that be acceptable to a vegan?"
Most vegans seem to neuter their pets, are you saying this is wrong? And procreation is breeding!. As for denying them their social structure, cats are loners for the most part, and our social structure is very similar to a dogs. A fox is a very different animal to a dog. Having packs of dogs roaming the streets in the uk is just not practical.
I do agree with you about artificial breeding though, it should be banned! that's why I said pet breeding with the welfare of the animal in mind.
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Mr Flibble
'unwanted'? It's not about us and what we want!
Unwanted means no pack, nowhere to live except a shelter or worse. I agree its not about what we want, but the way things are at the moment pets have nowhere to go except to live with us.
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Mr Flibble
As I've already stated animals are capable of living without human intervention. There's plenty of animals that live on our streets quite happily - birds, rats, mice, foxes etc. Certainly the ones that we've imported from other climates and those that have been purposely bred through hundreds of generations to not be able to survive life without humans should not just be released onto the streets if we were to suddenly just end the ownership of animals - much like if the same were to happen with farm animals. All vegans (i hope) believe this about domesticated animals bred for food, why are domesticated animals bred for amusement any different?
I actually think farm animals would fare a lot better in the uk countryside than the average dog. Domesticated animals such as cats and dogs are not bred for our amusement, they are bred because we love living with them and they love living with us. The connection and co-dependance between man and dog goes back a very long way. They are not caged, they go out and come back of their own accord and are part of the family.
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Mr Flibble
How so? All I've done is change the wording to something directly comparable.
I dont see how you can possibly compare responsible pet-breeding to the meat and dairy industries. I am lost for words here :(
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Mr Flibble
indeed. Korn: when is this poll coming?
Dont assume till you've seen the poll, most people seem to be erring towards the yes options.
Quote:
Mr Flibble;303900} OK, so dogs that roam in packs can't live in the UK anymore. That's our fault. Other canidae (such as foxes) exist in the wild here just fine (except when the bumpkins are out compensating for bedroom problems). With all the extra open land we're going to gain when we stop breeding animals for food (and the crops that they need to survive) there will be more space for animals that can survive in the UK to exist in the wild. Who knows, maybe dogs that roam in packs will be able to survive here again then? [/quote
You are dreaming! It is never going to happen unfortunately :( And what are the poor dogs supposed to do in the meantime?
[ quote=Mr Flibble;303900] Yes, which is all the more reason to do something about the situation we're in, not premote a trade in it, thus extending the problem! The two are a complete contradiction.
I dont think it is extending the problem though, contact with animals is part of what makes people go vegan :). Living with them helps us learn that they think and feel the same as us, it teaches us to empathise with them. And if noone bred dogs they may disappear altogether eventually!
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
If anyone else reading this would prefer that hazelbunny and I continue this via PM then let me know, I'm continuing to post here as it may be of general interest
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Hazelbunny
Unwanted means no pack, nowhere to live except a shelter or worse. I agree its not about what we want, but the way things are at the moment pets have nowhere to go except to live with us.
I agree, I've not stated in this thread that I do not believe that humans should rescue abandoned animals that cannot exist without humans. Rescue is a short term solution however, it isn't a solution to the overall problem - why animals that cannot exist without humans are still being created by us in the first place.
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Hazelbunny
Most vegans seem to neuter their pets, are you saying this is wrong?
No, as a temporary solution to a problem that we created it is and unfortunate thing that we must do.
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Hazelbunny
And procreation is breeding!
Not in a natural sense. You can't artifically inseminate or stick a randy male in a room with a female and let him rape her so you can sell the offspring, then call it natural procreation. My reasoning for mentioning it in the first place however was about the offspring that are destined for people's homes. I appologise for not being clearer on this.
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MrFlibble
so dogs that roam in packs can't live in the UK anymore. That's our fault.
Quote:
Hazelbunny
Having packs of dogs roaming the streets in the uk is just not practical.
I've already agreed with you on this matter, and explaned why.
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Hazelbunny
And what are the poor dogs supposed to do in the meantime?
Not be bred! I've already stated about the ones already alive. I'm in danger of going round in circles here.
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Hazelbunny
The connection and co-dependance between man and dog goes back a very long way.
Domestication of dogs goes back less than 20,000 years. This isn't long in evolutionary terms (55 million years for canines, 10 million for those that closely resemble today's).
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Hazelbunny
They are not caged, they go out and come back of their own accord and are part of the family.
Yes, it's called institutionalisation. It isn't a good thing.
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Hazelbunny
And if noone bred dogs they may disappear altogether eventually!
Beyond your emotional attachment; logically what is the problem with domestic animals that cannot exist without humans ceasing to exist?
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Hazelbunny
we love living with them and they love living with us.
As there's potentially kids reading this thread I'm not going to post what reading this sentence reminds me of. Let's just say it's an argument used by other groups of people as justification for what they do that most find highly disturbing. Certainly something I can post is the simularity with what you say and those that claim the same about animals bred for food. In both instances we're talking for things that can't talk, but based on self serving emotion not logic.
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Hazelbunny
I dont see how you can possibly compare responsible pet-breeding to the meat and dairy industries. I am lost for words here
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Hazelbunny
I dont think it is extending the problem though
And until you can see why human controlled breeding of animals is the same whatever our desired purpose for them you will not.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
hazelbunny
Dont assume till you've seen the poll, most people seem to be erring towards the yes options.
. . . .
And if noone bred dogs they may disappear altogether eventually!
As far as I can see most people have said they feel it is acceptable to offer homes to abandoned animals from rescue centres, for as long as there are still abandoned animals in need of homes. I agree with this.
I do not agree with continuing to breed animals. I would like to see no breeding of animals and no pets. That may mean certain species die out.
People often say to me "if we were all vegan there would be no cows and sheep in the fields" and I say "Fine". If animals cannot survive without human intervention they will die out like many other species have and continue to do. It is sad that humans have over time bred animals that are unable to live alone but that is not reason to continue to do so.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
Mr Flibble
If anyone else reading this would prefer that hazelbunny and I continue this via PM then let me know, I'm continuing to post here as it may be of general interest
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I agree, I've not stated in this thread that I do not believe that humans should rescue abandoned animals that cannot exist without humans. Rescue is a short term solution however, it isn't a solution to the overall problem - why animals that cannot exist without humans are still being created by us in the first place.
No, as a temporary solution to a problem that we created it is and unfortunate thing that we must do.
Not in a natural sense. You can't artifically inseminate or stick a randy male in a room with a female and let him rape her so you can sell the offspring, then call it natural procreation. My reasoning for mentioning it in the first place however was about the offspring that are destined for people's homes. I appologise for not being clearer on this.
I've already agreed with you on this matter, and explaned why.
Not be bred! I've already stated about the ones already alive. I'm in danger of going round in circles here.
Domestication of dogs goes back
less than 20,000 years. This isn't long in evolutionary terms (55 million years for canines, 10 million for those that closely resemble today's).
Yes, it's called
institutionalisation. It isn't a good thing.
Beyond your emotional attachment; logically what is the problem with domestic animals that cannot exist without humans ceasing to exist?
As there's potentially kids reading this thread I'm not going to post what reading this sentence reminds me of. Let's just say it's an argument used by other groups of people as justification for what they do that most find highly disturbing. Certainly something I can post is the simularity with what you say and those that claim the same about animals bred for food. In both instances we're talking for things that can't talk, but based on self serving emotion not logic.
And until you can see why human controlled breeding of animals is the same whatever our desired purpose for them you will not.
I think we might have to agree to disagree about our companion animals. You are assuming animal breeding is selfish, but I think it benefits the animals more than it does the human. Animals may not be able to talk, but you can tell what they are feeling cos its obvious.
You say dogs have been institutionalised into living with humans. But according to experts, dog and human packs merged naturally, one relying on the other. Sometimes different species do work together, to each others mutual benefit. Dogs have always been happy to live with humans in one big extended pack. Nowadays, in our dog wardened, food-free, concrete jungle, dogs rely on kind-hearted, animal lovers for their continued existence. Do you really think dogs would rather be extinct than live as part of a happy, loving pack, that often includes other dogs?
I dont, not for one second.
"They love lving with us and we love living with them" posted by Hazelbunny.
"As there's potentially kids reading this thread I'm not going to post what reading this sentence reminds me of. Let's just say it's an argument used by other groups of people as justification for what they do that most find highly disturbing. Certainly something I can post is the simularity with what you say and those that claim the same about animals bred for food. In both instances we're talking for things that can't talk, but based on self serving emotion not logic." posted by Mr. Flibble
I'm not at all sure what you're trying to imply here and I've no idea what other groups you are talking about. I also have no idea how anyone could ever claim that an animal would love to be eaten.